Sewer: why not North grate?

[TreeFrog]

On Sewer, there are two Sewer grates. Initially, it is best to plant only South (nearest) because it is the farthest away from the Strogg's main entrance.

However, if you manage to blow South, and after multiple pushes the GDF cannot get inside due to the already increasing number of Strogg inside, there is no reason not to blow the North grate (far). The most common argument against this is, "Don't blow North you idiot, it makes the Strogg an easy path to get inside!" However, sometimes people forget about things called spawnhosts. Spawnhosts, combined with having the deadliest choke point in the game (South grate entrance), make it so easy for the Strogg to just sit back and camp one entrance, without even having to respawn at their base.

My theory is:
1) Don't plant North if GDF has control of the grate room
2) Plant North if the Strogg are already set up inside


Whomever dumbed the idea of only planting South grate, and continuously lemming them and their teammates inside has obviously been playing with ETQW beta strats. I recently got kicked from a server for planting North, and was crazy pissed. Maybe it was because I was playing with a smurf account and had a white name. :rolleyes:

[BobMem]

In my experience the north grate gets blown by people collecting destroys anyway but I see your point. What about the overflow cover? (is it called that?) Blowing that offers an alternative route in without giving the Strogg a quicker way from their spawn.

As for Spawn hosts, I was playing sewer last night on Strogg as a technician. We faced a heavy GDF push and I died. I had a spawn host but I respawned right in the thick of it, not giving me enough time to sort another one before getting killed again (I die a lot btw).
So despite being a technician and having a half decent defence I still had to run from the Strogg spawn, luckily some fool GDF had blown the north sewer grate...
Maybe that says more about my lack of skill than the tactic, but even with the best technicians in the world SOME people will still be spawning from the base.

[Szakalot]

once strogg are inside blowing up north is a must.
a) no choke points, more chaotic firefights, more chances for gdf to just steam roll with faster coming reinforcements.
b) you can easily spawncamp strogg that want to go back the fast way through the north.

I see holds on just south for 10 min, a 'great' defences that totally collapses once north is blown.

[Basiley]

Depend Strogg team skill.
when most stroggs - newbies - better leave N untouched - easier to cover entry and etc.
but when Stroggs "knows what to do"[sometimes you can encounter really crack teams] - "More entries always better" !![easier to infiltrate by covert[while no chance to hold by other GDF team, players]

or in short - know[behavior exact players, oppose you]you enemies.

[Szakalot]

i disagree with what i managed to understand. Its not skill dependant, once stroggies are inside, you dont want to waste time on one tunnel entrance, and need to lenghten their defence line pronto.

[TreeFrog]

I can tell from playing Strogg on Sewer that it really messes with my mind, knowing both South & North are blown. Because I have to watch my back, thus making me not guard South as much.

[tomaterr]

On the final Objective, if I stay soldier, I always blow Overflow first, then the maintenance hatch, then North. If they hole up inside, overflow to maintenance hatch is much better. If you time it right, you can even land on the lip of the tunnel to get to the hatch. If you need to avoid some outside fire, plant North ASAP. Even if no one really uses it , its a psychological tool that you can use against the strogg. Once you distract them they will be spreading themselves too thin. Just make sure to have a large push or two through there every two minutes or so,otherwise they'll disregard it.

[Random Generator]

get an engie to mine up the north, and problem temporarily solved :)

[m1rra]

once strogg are inside blowing up north is a must.
a) no choke points, more chaotic firefights, more chances for gdf to just steam roll with faster coming reinforcements.
b) you can easily spawncamp strogg that want to go back the fast way through the north.

I see holds on just south for 10 min, a 'great' defences that totally collapses once north is blown.

So much truth in it.

[DrFunkenstein]

In theory it's in your best interest to deny the defensive side a choke point and that means you should blow up North as well once South is gone. In practice (pubs!) I only bother with North when South does turn into a choke point. Which is not always the case. It basically depends on the quality of the Strogg team.

When you have big trouble getting a plant on South at all, try to plant at North instead. Strogg must try to disarm it and the distraction might be enough to get a plant at South. If you succeed to blow up North, all the better. It will force the Strogg to have some people inside which will release the pressure on South even more and should make it easier to blow that one up as well.

Dr. Funkenstein

[Azuvector]

Funkenstein about sums it up.
The one other consideration with blowing the north gate is that once it's blown, the Strogg can bring a Hog into the final objective area in a spot that's got a fair bit of cover from rockets, so they can chew GDF up pretty good with it.

[Don Zardeone]

If your team is holding the stairs room fine by keeping the top tunnel and south entrance covered, and you blow north, then we're allowed to yell at you. We'll probably try to kick you before it blows.
Everything was fine, now you give them another entrance. The few defenders we have now might have to move back closer to the obj, making it easier for strogg to flood and throw random grenades and crap.

It's not about whether one should always or never blow them. It's about whether your team needs it or not.

The majority of north plants after south is blown, are made by exp/statwhores and are unneeded.

Another thing worth considering is the heavy GDF traffic on south compared to the low GDF traffic on north. If only south is open, strogg will come in with damage. If both are open, chances of damage for strogg are less.
If they use the top side tunnel then it doesn't really matter, but that one takes a while and the drop point is easily mined.

If they have 5 hypers shooting through south then yeah, it's probably ok to blown north. But if we're already holding and you plant, we will go WTF.

[TreeFrog]

In theory it's in your best interest to deny the defensive side a choke point and that means you should blow up North as well once South is gone. In practice (pubs!) I only bother with North when South does turn into a choke point. Which is not always the case. It basically depends on the quality of the Strogg team.

When you have big trouble getting a plant on South at all, try to plant at North instead. Strogg must try to disarm it and the distraction might be enough to get a plant at South. If you succeed to blow up North, all the better. It will force the Strogg to have some people inside which will release the pressure on South even more and should make it easier to blow that one up as well.

Dr. Funkenstein

that pretty much sums it up

[Szakalot]

If your team is holding the stairs room fine by keeping the top tunnel and south entrance covered, and you blow north, then we're allowed to yell at you. We'll probably try to kick you before it blows.
Everything was fine, now you give them another entrance. The few defenders we have now might have to move back closer to the obj, making it easier for strogg to flood and throw random grenades and crap.

It's not about whether one should always or never blow them. It's about whether your team needs it or not.

The majority of north plants after south is blown, are made by exp/statwhores and are unneeded.

Another thing worth considering is the heavy GDF traffic on south compared to the low GDF traffic on north. If only south is open, strogg will come in with damage. If both are open, chances of damage for strogg are less.
If they use the top side tunnel then it doesn't really matter, but that one takes a while and the drop point is easily mined.

If they have 5 hypers shooting through south then yeah, it's probably ok to blown north. But if we're already holding and you plant, we will go WTF.

the issue at hand is that if your inside the game should end before the north is blown. Either you have a hacker there, and you finish it, or you dont and you eventually die leaving the place for rampaging stroggies. And it goes under the condition 'strogg inside -> blow north'.

I myself im able to capitalize on blown north, just camp the reinforcments, and go in after a wave is cleared. Two medics, or a GPMG can hold north stroggies entrance no problem. In any case, the validity of blowing up north or not is at its worst, highly controversial; and as such does not, imo, present you with the 'right to yell at anybody'. Well, you can yell... just dont feel morally justified:p

[Don Zardeone]

Hu, ok so, we're all fighting to get the stairs room place and we're camping the south entrance and their drop down tunnel.

The covops is coming. (they always die for some reason, or nobody is covops and people still need to switch... I know, wtf..)
Strogg is sending in the next wave, you kill em, ammo low and stuff, looking for medic... and then you get the message that "epic noodle has planted explosive on the north sewer grate".

I'm gonna yell man, I'm gonna yell so hard my screams will shatter lightbulbs worldwide!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA



But ok, if you do it then I'll be nice.

[Shiv]

Funkenstein about sums it up.
The one other consideration with blowing the north gate is that once it's blown, the Strogg can bring a Hog into the final objective area in a spot that's got a fair bit of cover from rockets, so they can chew GDF up pretty good with it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTHARCrL8fo

stop in the room that surrounds the hack room... shoot :)
it doesnt matter which gate is blown.. the hog can still smoosh on in during a lul

1 more thing
BLOW THE NORTH GATE!
i cry when both gates are blown and i am strogg.. "crap crap which way to look which way to look"
instead of
"well ok, i aim my hyper blaster down here and shoot fish in a barrel"

[BobMem]

Is the hog inside on Sewer a recent tactic? I've only seen it once and tried it myself once too. I got RLd when i was hypering :D

I've never seen it all the way through near the hack room, sounds like fun!

[m1rra]

hog inside = fail

nade spammers + indoor RL + third eye > hog

[Chris]

I normally try blow north first in matches by using the back route dropping into the tunnel and going that way, you can normally plant there without been seen as they normally focus on the south, planting north first makes them fall back a bit allowing another soldier more easy time to plant south.

[Azuvector]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTHARCrL8fo

Oh wonderful, I've never seen someone take it in all the way using the south gate. :D

Is the hog inside on Sewer a recent tactic? I've only seen it once and tried it myself once too. I got RLd when i was hypering :D

I've never seen it all the way through near the hack room, sounds like fun!

Been around since at least beta, if not before. The main thing is you tend to need a few seconds of peace to worm in there without getting rocketed/naded. And a constructor to repair you.

[Basiley]

On the final Objective, if I stay soldier, I always blow Overflow first, then the maintenance hatch, then North. If they hole up inside, overflow to maintenance hatch is much better. If you time it right, you can even land on the lip of the tunnel to get to the hatch. If you need to avoid some outside fire, plant North ASAP. Even if no one really uses it , its a psychological tool that you can use against the strogg. Once you distract them they will be spreading themselves too thin. Just make sure to have a large push or two through there every two minutes or so,otherwise they'll disregard it.

nice
but i prefer N-hatch-S[inside]-overflow way.
sadly when i playing Covert, as ask Soldiers about blowing N, i typically got not even attempt to do it, so i waste time to switch classs and do it on my own.

[NixNix]

Some discussions never ends and this is one that people disagree most abut in the entire game.

Here are more stuff to disagree or agree about.

First of all, I will not deal with more general game problem like six covert ops trying to get in. This is not unique for this part of the game.

So what's happens when the north gate is destroyed?
Will GDF players use it frequently? Probably not. Will Strogg use it? Probably mostly. Will Strogg have a quicker access into the inner room? Definitely. Will GDF or Strogg gain most by letting Strogg come in quicker? That's the question!


Let's start this with the situation before the north gate is blowen.

First GDF have to fight outside the gate. This fight is similar to the fight before the south gate is destroyed. This room has a small tunnel in front of the gate as well as a upper floor. These places are easier accessed by Strogg than GDF so most GDF comes in the same way and is more vulnerable because GDF are more hept together while the Strogg asre spread out and can attack from several directions. There is also theer kind of protection in this room that is easier used by Strogg. Both team can go inside the gate but in reality, GDF has to clean this room before getting in. Strogg also has to clean this room before getting in but have easier to do so and while in, they have one more direction to attack from.

Once inside the next room, both teams has suffered from the fight from the outside of the gate, but GDF has usually suffered most. As mentioned early in this thread, the reminding GDF is easy killed and the technician can create spawn hosts.

So now, let's blow the north gate.

Strogg will easer get into the inner room them self and if they do it well, they can defend out from the south gate. However, the room outside the south gate is now more of a transport area for GDF and the few Strogg players that will try to fight there will have a difficult time with too little help from the team. GDF can send in granades and rockets and are quite likely to cause the intended effect now when the Strogg players are more concentrated over a smaller area.

GDF are still the weaker part, but can slowly take more control over the inner room while technicians have harder to create new spawn hosts. Ones GDF have taken controll ofer this room even if it's only one player that have survived, he will know from what direction the Strrogg reinforcement will come and use a grenade with almost no risk of team damage. He can also take the north gate out with quite good protection so he can delay the Strogg attack a bit more even it that not would happen often.

In short, the room outside the south gate is more suitable for Strogg defense while the inner room, the situation is more equal for the teams, but Strogg still has the advantage of shorter routes into it if the north gate is gone.


What should you do if you play for Strogg if the north gate is gone? My recommendation is not to use it unless someone currently is hacking. In this case you have to take the risk. In other situation if your choice is to go into the inner room or fight outside the south gate, fight outside the gate. You will probably not get the support you should get from the team, but this is better because you can take more GDF players by surprise.

The best is if no Strogg players use the north gate at all, but that's just theory, especially on pubs.

Maybe you should do something completely different like liberating the enemy forward spawn.

[Basiley]

"i agree to disagree" (c) Remedy

[Ryan]

Some discussions never ends and this is one that
Maybe you should do something completely different like liberating the enemy forward spawn.

Ehh, GDF cant liberate any forward spawn here...
And I tought this discussing was about the GDF should blow the grate or not...

[DugDanger]

I still feel that the overflow hatch is better than the north, they both come out in the same place.

[Szakalot]

overflow takes longer to get into, and is more easily countered why going up the ladder. The ambush from above is quite effective though, but i am convinced that blowing up north can be huge. Pub teams can easily choke a chokepoint. One HB makes a stand and then suddenly all are looking down the tunnel.

The issue with overflow is that you dont make strogg feel unsafe. While its great in comp, where you can sync an ambush its weak in pubs because people dont like going overflow much. Thus, you wont disperse the south strogg defence. And when north is blown up, strogg often, at least some of them, fall back to the hack room. And its the end for them, they cant hold there for long.

[TreeFrog]

Some discussions never ends and this is one that people disagree most abut in the entire game.

Here are more stuff to disagree or agree about.



don't jack my topic dude!

[DisarmoniaMundi]

It depends of the situation, if GDF rushed well after the south crate explosion, blowing north up will for sure more helps Stroggs than GDF.But if GDF rushed poor after explosion, then Stroggs got inside with lot of spawnhosts, GDF NEEDS destoying north (imo).Overflow hatch can helps a bit also.But the fact is this last obj of Sewer is hard, and when Strogg are inside you just can't take this obj with only one way to get inside (not exactly, you still can but will be very hard).

[Tandem]

you should/ve polled it so i know who to make fun of....

&always kill north btw...
if gdf cant hold and hack they dont deserve to win

[signofzeta]

Don't you find it ironic that a lot of people dislike the blowing the north grate, and also those people say that hyperblaster is overpowered?

[Don Zardeone]

I dislike blowing north and I think hyper is awesome.

Been keeping an eye on this. Out of all the GDF I've seen, I'm the only one who takes north.

Today, north was blown first so the entire strogg team was camping in there while the entire GDF team tried to blow south, ignoring the north completely.

Therefore, for publics, it is better to never blow north and to yell at people who do it anyway because pub server GDFs do not use north whether south is open or not.

I'll change my stance once I see a GDF team use north effectively on a pub.

[Basiley]

I'll change my stance once I see a GDF team use north effectively on a pub.

because not many Covert really value of disguise and use them well.
same for their Strogg collegues.

[TreeFrog]

the recent mL vs Hubris match was a perfect example on how to use North Sewer properly. I recommend anyone to watch the shoutcast VOD once it comes out for some really cool strats.

[kwisatz_haderach]

I noticed since this thread is on the official forum that a lot of people are blowing north after south resulting a much easier acces for the strogg.

I don't think it is a good solution. Blowing the hatch door above south is TEH solution imo.

[zaku212]

I noticed since this thread is on the official forum that a lot of people are blowing north after south resulting a much easier acces for the strogg.

I don't think it is a good solution. Blowing the hatch door above south is TEH solution imo.

it is very usefull to have open,but GDF on a ladder are just beautiful targets,althought it is worth getting up there:cool:

[Szakalot]

the biggest issue i have is the time to get there. You spent 6 more seconds using the overflow hatch, and with 15-20 seconds to get inside its 1/5 less attacks.
Everytime your running somewhere, not actively killing anybody is a time when your team is down one player.

[Basiley]

the biggest issue i have is the time to get there. You spent 6 more seconds using the overflow hatch, and with 15-20 seconds to get inside its 1/5 less attacks.
Everytime your running somewhere, not actively killing anybody is a time when your team is down one player.

thats right if WHOLE team not gouing with you :-)
p.s.
sometimes "human waves" kamikazi-stuled attacks - simply not work.
and you and you team need a more safe way and more advanced tactics.
hatches - provides both advatages.

[Kristus]

Blow them all, and you'll be able to swarm the Strogg like the locust.

[signofzeta]

I played yesterday on sewer, and as a covert ops, I was able to get to the sewer controls undetected because I went through the north grates.

Case in point? Destroy north even if it means you getting kicked.