Hack Prevention

[chatsterQWHQ]

Hi Diamond geezers :D

As you can see from the sig I have set up a central resource for clans to advertise to potential new members. I totally love the clan community and the enjoyment in being part of a league, competitions etc etc. BF2 was incredible when it started, but is now dead due to being overwhelmed with cheats, this removes the trust between clans, some of you may have seen the teams dolphin diving around the maps and such like.

My concern is that potentially this could be the greatest multiplayer FPS ever and already those Dicks at MSX have started a sales page for Quake Wars, which will kill any trust between clans in competion. How are you guys gonna try and stop this killing a thriving community of clans?? and general gameplay? are you going to be using Punkbuster for example?

Chatster

[Bruner]

The question, wheather the punkbuster will be part of the game has already been answered in one of the interviews, and YES it will be used in ET:QW
( You can read the interview here (http://planetquake.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Articles.Detail&id=825) )

[chatsterQWHQ]

Thanks M8 :D

[JBar]

Good point - dolphin diving a bunny hopping really ruin BF2 infantry - how a soldier manages to get both feet off the ground whilst carrying all that equipment it beyond me.

I have seen in the videos that you can jump, and that you can go prone, but are people in ETQWs going to be able to jump and go prone at the same time? Are they going to be able to fire a gun during a jump, and if not, how quickly after they land are they going to be able to fire?

[sponge]

From what I've read around the internets, the player physics are relatively Quake-like, although the thread author was talking about anti-cheat, and not player movement.

When it comes down to it, the game has Enemy Territory and Quake in the title. I'd expect that the game feels like one or the other, and FEEL like Quake or ET; high-speed, strafejumping, proning, trimping, all that good stuff, and not just a psuedo-realistic "you can't do anything unless you're standing still and ironsighted because that's how it really is!" type of game.

But now I've gotten hopelessly off topic.

[>XaartaX<]

So PB is included in ET:QW. Honestly, how effective has this been in curbing the cheats in BF?

[SpankMuffin]

I'd expect that the game feels like one or the other, and FEEL like Quake or ET; high-speed, strafejumping, proning, trimping, all that good stuff, and not just a psuedo-realistic "you can't do anything unless you're standing still and ironsighted because that's how it really is!" type of game.

I know its slightly off topic, but figured it was worth a mention. As far as movement is concerned, according to a preview from etqw.com (http://www.etqw.com/en/news/376-Rage-against-the-Machines---ET-QW-preview) there won't be any strafe-jumping.

That being said, I have not played the game, but according to that preview, he tried his best but couldn't eek out a strafe-jump at all. So, for the most part sponge, it sounds like you are right about not having hyper-realistic player movement, but at the same time, I think we probably won't necessarily have the freedom of movement, so to speak, that we had in Quake or ET.

Sorry for the off-topicness. :o

[sponge]

it sounds like you are right about not having hyper-realistic player movement, but at the same time, I think we probably won't necessarily have the freedom of movement, so to speak, that we had in Quake or ET.

Yea, probably shouldn't have said strafe-jumping since I saw that, but it sounds like some of the other concepts should be in. ET was even a bit "restricted" compared to Quake3, and CPMA of course.

So PB is included in ET:QW. Honestly, how effective has this been in curbing the cheats in BF?

The number 1 way to stop cheats is effective server adminning, and keeping on top with MD5tool checks. And not just those that kickban you because they get killed a few times. No anti-cheat will ever just be fire and forget.

[SpankMuffin]

Yeah, sponge is right about that. Effective server administrating is extremely important to keeping a good community intact for a long time. No matter how good technology gets, people will ALWAYS find a way to break it and cheat.

Having something like PunkBuster built in is, of course, a very very good thing, but having a competent server admin(s) is just as important.

[fusen]

So PB is included in ET:QW. Honestly, how effective has this been in curbing the cheats in BF?

It is frustrating to constantly see cheats getting past PB but you have to realise the size of the cheating community compared to the small development team at punkbuster...

As others had mentioned, constant monitoring of players on your server will normally get rid of the obvious cheats even if PB doesn't detect them

[Jinsu]

It is frustrating to constantly see cheats getting past PB but you have to realise the size of the cheating community compared to the small development team at punkbuster...

As others had mentioned, constant monitoring of players on your server will normally get rid of the obvious cheats even if PB doesn't detect them

Very true, the combination of PB and some active and sharp admins usually get rid of cheaters in no time.

[W4CGunner]

The question, wheather the punkbuster will be part of the game has already been answered in one of the interviews, and YES it will be used in ET:QW
( You can read the interview here (http://planetquake.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Articles.Detail&id=825) )

Punk Buster is a joke, Guys that hack say its easy to get past PB. The hardest part about hacking a new game isn't getting past PB, but rather digging into the files to find the ones that you need. BF2 and 2142 are full of peeps and clans cheating on a nightly basis in ranked servers. Every game I've played that has PB, has tons of cheaters in servers. You Tube is full of videos to prove it. Someone just needs to come up with better anit-cheat than PB! ! !

[Jeebs]

the best anti -cheat would be bootable games i guess..
but you can never eliminate hacking even with some serious encryption
its only a matter of time.... PB seems to work ok there might still be cheaters
with it but just imagine what it would be like without it. :/

[space]

From what I've read around the internets, the player physics are relatively Quake-like, although the thread author was talking about anti-cheat, and not player movement.

When it comes down to it, the game has Enemy Territory and Quake in the title. I'd expect that the game feels like one or the other, and FEEL like Quake or ET; high-speed, strafejumping, proning, trimping, all that good stuff, and not just a psuedo-realistic "you can't do anything unless you're standing still and ironsighted because that's how it really is!" type of game.

But now I've gotten hopelessly off topic.


No strafe jumping - at all.. or so we've been told. It's shitty but that's the breaks.

[Zarkow]

Us players that are old Quake1/2-players are a clear minority and as such I think it's alright they removed strafejumping.

[filo]

well tbh u cant expect to have quake-like moving in this type of shooter i think ... alltho u cant have CS - jumping aswell i mean cmon its quake-tittled :>

its a paradoks what will happen ... being in the middle not doing anything right or be on the eather edge of extreme: trick-jumping or going delta-force XD this will be interesting indeed, i gues beta will tell :PP

[Twain]

Cheat can sometimes be simple to detect, but what I'm worring about is that in the Bf2 you dont just cheat like installing a file in a map, but tweaking.

Tweaking the ping, the aim, the fog and such and thats a little harder to detect but pretty powerfull. Punkbuster can stop changes in most of the files, but there was some important files in Bf2 that you could change without the Punkbuster noticed. Are there any changes in QW that make it "tweak-able" ?

[space]

Cheat can sometimes be simple to detect, but what I'm worring about is that in the Bf2 you dont just cheat like installing a file in a map, but tweaking.

Tweaking the ping, the aim, the fog and such and thats a little harder to detect but pretty powerfull. Punkbuster can stop changes in most of the files, but there was some important files in Bf2 that you could change without the Punkbuster noticed. Are there any changes in QW that make it "tweak-able" ?

The d3 engine is highly tweakable.

[Memnoch666Devil]

those Dicks at MSX have started a sales page for Quake Wars

ok for one, MSX is not your biggest threat to cheating as they have to wait on someone else to release a hack and then steal it. And two there will always be hacks for games, no matter how good the protection is. Im really looking forward to this game but I give it a week after its release that there is a working hack for it. Thats been about the timeline for any game that gets released and is popular.

[fusen]

MSX supposedly "support" all new games that are unreleased... which basically means they have no code for the game atm and just want to try and brag

[sponge]

For all of the various blatherings on how they're going to dominate the game with cheats, even in ET where skipping a ban is easier than pi, things are still worse in other games. Most of the cheat community is hot air, and you can certainly trust in what fusen says as it refers to them.

[KlosterKatten]

Bunnyjumping while shooting is probably one of the most annoying thing in games like this, it really ruins the feel of war, and brings it back to arcade.

Does anyone know if there will be some sort of stamina-bar to avoid this ?

[PointlesS]

Does anyone know if there will be some sort of stamina-bar to avoid this ?

there's no stamina bar...however there will be a sprint button like battlefield where you sprint and can't shoot at the same time...in quake wars however you can sprint for as long as you want...and while sprinting the previews have noted you can run as fast as the vehicles...

bunny hopping is pretty much impossible which is fine...the run speed will ensure the craziness of et will still be there...but I have read you can kind of combo your jumps to get to higher ground...I forget which preview had it...but they weren't too clear about it...

[marki]

Bunnyjumping while shooting is probably one of the most annoying thing in games like this, it really ruins the feel of war, and brings it back to arcade.

Does anyone know if there will be some sort of stamina-bar to avoid this ?
then youve never player et, since aiming while jumping is useless to you -.-

[KlosterKatten]

then youve never player et, since aiming while jumping is useless to you -.-

Ive never played W:ET no, i was to young then. But atleast i got my question answered :)

[W4CGunner]

Cheat can sometimes be simple to detect, but what I'm worring about is that in the Bf2 you dont just cheat like installing a file in a map, but tweaking.

Tweaking the ping, the aim, the fog and such and thats a little harder to detect but pretty powerfull. Punkbuster can stop changes in most of the files, but there was some important files in Bf2 that you could change without the Punkbuster noticed. Are there any changes in QW that make it "tweak-able" ?

The major cheats come from running a couple of apps to load the cheats into memory which PB supposedly constantly scans memory, they problem is guys that write the code are able to fool PB memory scans, and have their cheats running in memory. File cheats are nothing compared to the cheats that are loaded into memory. All it takes if for someone to get past PB, then the files and the how show up all over the net, then any Tom, Dick, or Harry can load them. Two weeks after BF2 was I released, I found web sites with guys posting their cheats and the pograms needed to loaded them into memory, then they spread like wild fire across the community.

[Sweet_Candy]

Ive never played W:ET no, i was to young then. But atleast i got my question answered :)

To young? ET is still being played by many. I just hope the rambo medics are dealt with in ET QW.

[Archangel]

So PB is included in ET:QW. Honestly, how effective has this been in curbing the cheats in BF?

Yeah damn straight, and what about that crap system of kick voting, I have never seen it work, if he gets a nomination and gets 7 votes but needs 8, then 5minutes later get nominated again gets 10 votes, now he needs 20 or something like that, no mater how bad the guy was he was always just out of reach from being kicked, didnt mater if he was nominated 10 times in a round or fresh from another round, never kicked.

[{pdX}kougar]

any word on ETQW using those new PnkBstrA & PnkBstrB windows services that caused so many headaches in the BF2/2142 world recently?

[Lanz]

There are two things that I think is wrong with Punkbuster, first it shouldn't announce that anyone is cheating since this function can actually be used effectively by the cheat makers to perfect there cheats. Just silently send a log to even balance. And secondly ban people gloabaly for cheating just as they do with people trying to alter PB's functionallity. One time caught cheating is enough to ban them from all PB enabled servers IMO.

[RRxMEZ]

Thinking back to the good ol RTCW days... When you get whacked from a server, you cant just delete your key, get a new one and come right back. At $50 to $60 a pop, we should see a better class of gamers. That being said, there will always be MUTTS that like to cheat. I am not sure of who was sponsoring it, but back in the day our servers were tied in through someone where when a person was caught by PB they were automatically added to our ban file, in this mannor networking helped to clear the Riff Raff. I will check in with our ol RTCW Guru and find out who was running that.

[DogGunn]

So PB is included in ET:QW. Honestly, how effective has this been in curbing the cheats in BF?
At least PB produces screen shots / unlike VAC.

[Rogue]

Yeah damn straight, and what about that crap system of kick voting, I have never seen it work, if he gets a nomination and gets 7 votes but needs 8, then 5minutes later get nominated again gets 10 votes, now he needs 20 or something like that, no mater how bad the guy was he was always just out of reach from being kicked, didnt mater if he was nominated 10 times in a round or fresh from another round, never kicked.
Server admins can change kick vote options...

[stoph]

I think one of the main concerns of the competitive community is whether or not first person demos will be made available. The third-person demos of bf2/bf2142 make it very difficult to monitor suspected players.

[madness]

I think one of the main concerns of the competitive community is whether or not first person demos will be made available. The third-person demos of bf2/bf2142 make it very difficult to monitor suspected players.

Spectator mode is in first person. You can probably record demos in first person too.

[Moncealyo]

Oh man the forums are going to be lighting up with complaints about punkbuster. I had a time trying to get it to run on vista for bf2142. I saw many leave the bf2142 game community because they could not get round the punkbuster problems. I mean you should be able to buy your game install it maybe patch it up and run it. If its not that easy then there is a problem because not everyone knows or wants to know how to work round PB problems in vista. Bugs will be there no doubt and granted bf2142 is not official made for vista the real question is punkbuster vista compatible or better put "user friendly"? Punkbuster does not have go tech support I hope that ET QW will be more responsive to the punkbuster problems that will arise. However if there are no big problems then news of that will spread and more people will stop playing bf2142 and start playing ET QW. We just want to play not try to figure out whats wrong with the game.

[Pinge]

Cheats are a fact of life.
If you have to cheat to win, you are a very sad person.
Don't like it, cant do anything about it.

Hang and quarter them is one choice I was thinking of or a good public stoning...:rolleyes:

[Horus]

I actually never understood cheats in online games, it's not as if you actually can claim that skill level. =/

[-mdg-]

hmmm i am afraid of that :

Don't post links to hack sites please :)

i think PB is a HOLE .........

[moonshield]

Pbbans is a system, which streams pb&etpro guids via a server side tool. So if the server bans a player for a ban, his pb-/etproguid gets banned on every other server using this system. It works. However, guids can be spoofed. So having a lot of referees is the only way to prevent hacks (until some buffer overflows will give admin rights:P)

[Phobos]

Ah, if you guys been to our server (RmC) you will know that we dont deal with cheaters being around, we use pb to our greatest advantage, admins are always watching, we check guids/ips for past history, and constantly checking YAWN. we try our best to keep our server clean but its hard to deal with people

one thing tho i think there will be ALOT less cheating than most games cause less people will go the effort to hack when they pay 50 bucks for a game, and have their own account.

i hope that SD will provide a list of people caught hacking, that way we can adopt from that list

also like some games, they should really test it on every possible system. i have a feeling some people will run into errors that will be caused by pb, such as os system or pb errors

[Sam84]

i have to say when i read that punkbuster was going to be used my heart stopped.....ive been a BF2 admin since it came out and Punkbuster are S**T. ive done everything i possibly can on our clan server to stop hackers, pbss MD5 checks, file checks etc, but they still can.
I bet activision etc could come up with better hack protection in a week.....
I'm looking forward to this game to move from BF2/2142 etc as at the moment it has hacks left right and centre

[Martijn]

Stop hacking is impossible :( You can better have something to prevent the most cheaters then complete nothing

[Kurayamino]

Why punkbuster, ID Should make there own. Punkbuster only gets n00b hackers that are using old hacks!

[Martijn]

Becouse its maybe a expertise at his own to write anticheat software? You must have much knowlegde of the lowlevel api's of windows...

[Krug]

Interesting thread. My first post :)
I dont mind strafejumping as an old Q2 player.
Cheats is very much about server admins like others have said. I would be happy to pay a small monthly fee like with WOW, to make sure servers are in mint condition and well protected from scum.

[Kurayamino]

Becouse its maybe a expertise at his own to write anticheat software? You must have much knowlegde of the lowlevel api's of windows...

Wtf? I dont understand that!

[Martijn]

I you really want to know what i mean, here some basic information + links to more of it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/API

[Zarkow]

Ah, forums...where you can argue a point without knowing anything about it. :D

[Martijn]

Hehe true.

[sponge]

Writing a program like PunkBuster is non-trivial. I'm not about to defend their sometimes pathetic performance, but the fact is that writing an app like PB is akin to writing an anti-virus in some ways (heuristic detection?) and when the user WANTS you on their PC, it becomes that much harder to hide it.

Besides, EB can't catch what they don't have: private bots. Those are the problem.

[reyalp]

Writing a program like PunkBuster is non-trivial.
It also requires ongoing effort. If you want to write a really killer graphics engine, you only have to do it once. If you write really killer anticheat, it will still need continual updating. Unlike an AV, you can't just update signatures either.

[escapedturkey]

So PB is included in ET:QW. Honestly, how effective has this been in curbing the cheats in BF?

If server admins use streaming, such as PunksBusted Auto-MBL, it can be very effective.

http://www.punksbusted.com/cgi-bin/membership/publicbans.cgi

[SlippytheWeasel]

So PB is included in ET:QW. Honestly, how effective has this been in curbing the cheats in BF?

It's not a question of how effective PB is for BF, but how buggy BF is to begin with. It was released too quickly, and has never been really fixed.


Slippy

[fusen]

If server admins use streaming, such as PunksBusted Auto-MBL, it can be very effective.

http://www.punksbusted.com/cgi-bin/membership/publicbans.cgi


this is a good add on but then this is still useless when you can't detect the cheat in the first place :p

[CAL|Daniel]

(everything sponge, fusen and reyalp said is dead on target).

well the problem is that cheating can never be 'stopped' since they always stay effectively one step ahead. The answer is to curb it as best as possible using all the tools available from md5 to pb to server admins to down right league's AC teams. It's a community effort to decide they do not want to see hackers.

[Kurayamino]

I you really want to know what i mean, here some basic information + links to more of it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/API

Why dont you just explain in proper English? Would be helpful for your future posts ;)

[Rogue]

Why dont you just explain in proper English? Would be helpful for your future posts ;)
English isn't everyone's first language. As long as it's comprehendable it's all good.

[danuker]

I doubt any anti-hack/cheat system will be totally full proof, but at least PB works to stop the most casual cheats and hackers out there.

[Martijn]

Why dont you just explain in proper English? Would be helpful for your future posts ;)

Sorry but my english isnt very good ;) You can a api image as best as a gate in something. In this case in the windows engine. With that gate can you communicate from a other program. You can have high level and low level api functions. How lower you go how directer you come to the real kernel of even lower. A high level thing is something as music or video. Low level is something as what is inside the memory? Also are api's to let do the appication something. In the windows case: open a window. However this are maybe not the best examples, english is not my native language ;)

[SlippytheWeasel]

Writing a program like PunkBuster is non-trivial. I'm not about to defend their sometimes pathetic performance, but the fact is that writing an app like PB is akin to writing an anti-virus in some ways (heuristic detection?) and when the user WANTS you on their PC, it becomes that much harder to hide it.

Besides, EB can't catch what they don't have: private bots. Those are the problem.

The "pathetic" performance of PB is almost always due to admins failing to set up their server correctrly, and not opting to stream to services like PsB, etc. We catch cheats all the time, and not always just thru PB. Our sharing streams to PsB catches it's fair share as well.

As to the post about staying one step ahead, that's a fair assesment. But you gotta realize that EB doesn't just wait for hacks to be reported. I'll bet they actively search the websites of the low-lifes who produce that stuff for new and interesting hacks, just to get one-up on the hackers.;)

One thing I always found amusing is that some people pay big bucks (well, big to some) for a hack that WILL be caught if it is used on a PB-enabled server, sooner or later. Sooner, the more it's used on PB-enabled servers. Waste of money, since if they would just practice a little, rather than letting their computer do all the work, they might be a decent fragger. Then they go and buy another hack:confused:

As a side note: Ever notice the killer names most hackers use? They pick a nick like WarriorfromHell, or Eliteshooter, or frag'emall, but it's not THEIR skill, it's all the hack. No one who uses a hack to play the game can honestly claim to be any good without the hack, because they are too lazy to learn like most everyone else. Unless they were a decent player who decided to try a hack, liked it, and got hooked. I've seen several gamers go thru that stage. The reaction to using a hack is just like drugs. They start small, then they have to use it more and more, til they get caught. Then they try to claim they are being falsely accused, wronged, framed, etc, etc, til they finally admit to using the hack.:eek:

Guess we need a Hacks Anonymous (HA) for group therapy for a lot of them gamers.:rolleyes:


Slippy

[=CK=vanguard]

PB is just a tool and is basic at best as they must know the third party hacks to detect them this is where the community must do its job and help inform them of hacks.
This is not all that can be done a third party A/C site link game-violations/pbbans/punkbusted and cheat police plus a whole lot of others here http://www.evenbalance.com/index.php?page=links.php that streams the server to a second server and checks different files can also help as we found out with fear and cod2 plus auto screen shots that hold on u'r server and A/C server so the ADMIN comes into affect checking screenies for low lifes that use these things so u can be very sure when someone is caught 3 checks would have taken place making it very rare for false positives to be found.
even this is infallible and some can get by but they catch most google hackers.


My way of thinking on cheating is if your caught you should be globaly banned of any PB game thats just the way i see it.
Once a cheat allways a cheat

[ph4ge]

the most important factor is the community itself. in current ET you see a trent where noone cares about hackers. everyone knows who hacks or who even has been busted, but still there are plenty of people who remain to play with them. it's important that busted cheaters become outcasts from the community, how can you keep playing with someone who betrayed you and your team?

[un1zo.]

Good point - dolphin diving a bunny hopping really ruin BF2 infantry

No.. it was the people constantly crying about it on the EA forums that ruined BF2 infantry.

Isn't there a way to make it so it's illegal to make hacks or even USE them?

[BlackJack]

The big advantage here is that we can BAN cheaters for good not like W:ET where you could get back in 5 min after having been banned.

[rglaf]

So PB is included in ET:QW. Honestly, how effective has this been in curbing the cheats in BF?
PB works only on public cheats, cheats that you pay for are undetected. So, in other words, it's useless in BF.

[Mr.Cripples]

oh noes,,, they better get rid of that MSX ****s

[Baldrick]

PB works only on public cheats, cheats that you pay for are undetected. So, in other words, it's useless in BF.
Not all, its just a lot harder for PB to detect private cheats, because they are of that nature, private.
PB + Punksbusted Streaming (for PB Screen verification + extra MD5 checks) + 1st person demo recording is a better anti-cheat than most, unless someone can build a program like ZBlock.

Also, will it be possible to impliment Cvar's on certain files, if the need arises?

[Phobos]

people are always gonna find a way around cheats no matter what, information like source codes are leaked and people start to mess with them, i wish people can learn to play a game as it is

as for pb, its tough for them to keep up with so many players, its not 100% but it helps, i usually just go through YAWN and find players who have been caught hacking before and just ban them.

hopefully with the new account system they wont be able to change their guid 1000 times to come back with new hacks.

and i think we will have to worry about pb less in this game since theres accounts, and people are paying for this one, i really hope there is a limit tho of 3 per account, they should make it 2, anyone who makes more than 2 can go ahead and cough out more money



hmm the thing about the megatextures draw, does this mean that theres more potential for hackers to try to establish a wallhack for this game

[Terrynator]

I had a read through this very informative thread. Quite a large number of posters are quite knowledgeable of the issues involved in controlling cheating. The key phrase in all this is about control and tools to do the job. As long as the system revolves around an untrusted client setup, there will be those that try to exploit weaknesses. The technology is not there to radically change this in the immediate future. We must work with what is available.

The responsibility of all this will always fall on the shoulders of the game server admin and his team, if he has one. They are the ones that are the front line in the effort to maintain a level playing field for everyones enjoyment. It is niether an easy job nor a particullay thanked one. Much of the effort, considerable time and cost goes unseen by the players as a whole.

Anti-cheating movement has slowly evolved over time as game companies interest and the technology has advanced. This move forward has involved programs like Punkbuster by EvenBalance and the admin community around it. Not to be overlooked is the advent of requiring accounts with the distributor to use the online product.

As was pointed out. The install of PB is a tool not a solution. Moving beyond the default to use the advanced features of PB is like improving your toolset. Admins getting involved in the admin community by joining organizations like PunksBusted.com (PsB), again adds to this toolset significantly.

The more game administrators that join and use the tools available at PsB the fewer cheaters that can't even join a server to begin with. They simply are disconnect. The strength here is in numbers of committed admins and their clans to not tolerate cheaters. It is a zero tolerance policy. This is what has proven over the years to be the most effective method.

I often recieve communication involving players complaining about cheaters. I ask them what servers do they play on and then check if those servers are involved in streaming and the AMBL system. I then suggest they try a few different servers in their area and report back their impressions. Without a doubt they report back their experience was more positive. The servers I sent them to are members of PsB and have an active anti-cheat stance. Because it is also my job I as with some others monitor various cheat sites etc. It is no secret that cheaters will try to avoid streaming servers and others complain of the reduction of servers they can use because of the MBL. They often mention the want to get around the MBL because the servers using it are good servers they once enjoyed playing on. There is more to this aspect if you were to read the ban appeals I recieve.

As for private cheats. Yes there is no doubt this is a challenge if you know a little about the subject. Cheats are fairly easy to write. Nothing much in the code is new or requires much change. All the effort and what takes the most time is put into hiding the code from PB and it's set of tools. It is also no secret that everytime a method is blocked it makes it more difficult to find a new method. What most people don't know is how often EvenBalance does detect a private method. You generally won't hear about these simply because they are behind private doors so to speak. I'll give you just one sample story. Recently a private pay for cheats website was hit. It's users on average lost two cd-keys to a global guid ban. I have the records of the numbers of cheaters removed from your servers. This cheatsite has still not recovered after two months. It lost quite a few upset scum paying customers. The rest bitch daily that they are paying for nothing. Not many in the public are aware of this.

The bottom line is for an involved gaming community. One where you get involved proactively as compared to passively. ET is difficult because it's a free game and easy to obtain a new key. It does require a strong community around it that doesn't tolerate or harbour known cheaters no matter what leaf they claim to have overturned. Exposure is an important aspect. It does require an active and vigilant admin community that is willing to get involved and use the tools available.

For all PB supported games in general. Joining PsB does add an important tool for you to use. Our membership is the largest by a huge factor and is a strong community. The same can be said for the league affiliates we have. Most leagues are now switching over to make it manditory for match servers to stream. They are using our advanced tools they have access to in order to check a player history and exclude cheaters from competing. They to wish to improve their fair play in matches for everyones enjoyment. GSP operations like EscapedTurkey's won't rent to cheaters when he discovers them. As you see. Things are changing more there as well. But yes it does take time and effort.

Is the AC technology improving? Yes. Are we winning? Well the openly available cheats are much reduced and detected quicker. Forcing them into private pay cheats also reduces the numbers. As an oldtime server admin myself, this is a good improvement in my eyes over what it was. Believe me or not, but on average cheater base are only >1%. They are usually just the noisy, disruptive 1% so get noticed more. Sitting on the sidelines being an armchair quarterback is not all that useful. Taking part in a community is what makes it a more enjoyable experience for all.

Well I hope you didn't mind me sticking my nose in and giving my longwinded two cents+. However PsB wouldn't exist if people didn't care or not think it works. All our expenses to run our servers and to cover our substantial costs are donated from theses committed admins and clans. All our staff volunteer their time. It seems to be working because the PsB community continues to grow at a rate that is difficult to keep up with. Put it this way. I don't feel 4,500 streaming servers, live at the moment, can be wrong about this. I continue to put my faith in them and the tools available.

PsB looks forward to supporting The QW admin communiy.

[Skillatchi]

GOD NO, PUNKBUSTER RUINED Q3, Q4, takes up too much resources.

[Memnoch666Devil]

The big advantage here is that we can BAN cheaters for good not like W:ET where you could get back in 5 min after having been banned.

ok for one you can never ban any1 for good. There are spoofers to change hwids and ips and then you can just add another cd key to the reg. There are alot of sites out there that sell keys for well under what they cost retail. For instance I can go out and get a bf2 key for about $5 if not free and bam get right back in. Punkbuster is a joke but it does stop the nub cheaters and makes it better off then what it would be if there was no anti cheat program.

[givememetal]

I agree with Memnoch666Devil. PB isn't perfect, but it can at least take care of the casual cheaters.

[fozzer]

i have to say when i read that punkbuster was going to be used my heart stopped.....ive been a BF2 admin since it came out and Punkbuster are S**T. ive done everything i possibly can on our clan server to stop hackers, pbss MD5 checks, file checks etc, but they still can.
I bet activision etc could come up with better hack protection in a week.....
I'm looking forward to this game to move from BF2/2142 etc as at the moment it has hacks left right and centre

Do you stream your server to an anti cheat site such as PBBans or PsB m8 ?
PB on its own can be a bit pedestrian and the extra help that streaming to an anti cheat site gives can make all the difference.

[chatsterQWHQ]

Hey guys,

WOWSA, I've been away for a few weeks on courses and stuff and have completely neglected my Quake Wars Duties. It's sooooo cool to see you all taking an active role in talking about this issue.

Many thanks to Terrynator for giving us a great explanation about how we can all help and make a difference. It's clearly a topic you are all concerned about and one which hopefully Splash Damage and the guys at ID can give some consideration.

The rule of "Self Regulation" is always the best, we should name and shame, if you are positive someone is cheating. A strong anti-cheat community will hopefully brow beat the losers into submission. What's fantastic is that we are having this great debate and not burying our heads in the sand as in previous releases.

LETS BEAT THE CHEATS AND MAKE THIS THE BEST COMMUNITY GAME EVER!!

Chatster

[Mr.Cripples]

I think punkbuster cant handle all those *&$*!)$&!)$ cheats, you cant get rid of all the cheats with punkbuster, but I think, with the help of server admins, going through PB screenshots from time to time, you can ban those pricks that got through the PB detection system. I think the whole QW playing community has the responsibility to help punkbuster getting rid of those sad people.

If we all do our best, we can have a (nearly) cheatfree game.


p.s. great I can still say "pricks" :$

[chatsterQWHQ]

Totally Agree Cripples, :D

[Spynie]

You can say all this, but the main problem i have with PB, is this constant fear of myself been globally banned for no reason, this is not unheard of, a lot of people have been banned from all PB enabled games once they were mistakenly banned from one.
this may not seem too much of a problem, but all of these people have said how they recieved no support to their enquiries, in fact PB staff were very rude to them (no doubt the frustrated players were rude to begin with, but that should be expected) and offered nothing but "you have breached our terms in the EULA". this is a very concerning matter for me, and as another posted said, as soon as he read that PB will be used his heart stopped, i can say the same, i was very happy that an alternative to EA's BF was to be released, but PB has nearly thrown me off even buying.

what i am really looking for is reassurance that i will not be discarded due to an accidental ban. (ofc i am not one too cheat, simply i can't be bothered too, and if i do it will be myself and bots, as i am also very interested into these exploits, much like the function of viruses)

The other PB attribute i dislike, is how it needs to gather a lot of your private data, such as ingame screenshots, hardware profiles etc. i do agree it takes care of the old exploits available. if you do get accidentally banned or you do get a global GUID your stuck in the dark with no help from EB, it is very easy to get around the GUID ban but you will have to get a new game cd-key. so everytime you get banned it will cost you a game (or games depending on how many PB games you own). and that is something i am not willing to deal with. (and i doubt keygens will work online)

[Kaji]

Yes, SplashDamage and Activision should make sure that this game doesn't turn into Counter Strike 1.6, where nearly everyone was a hacker, but tried to make up for it with "Uh, Cal-I experience dude"

So, I believe SP and Act should have a little more than punkbuster, that only bans hackers, not detects them (as far as i have used punkbuster atleast.) Maybe something better than VAC (valve) would be very nice. Or, like in WC3: have a banlist, where, if one server has a hacker, the server admin would put it on his banlist, and all server admins that ran off of the banlist would not allow that IP/ID into their server. It could work.

amirite?

[Spynie]

IP is very easily changed, usually by reconnecting to the internet (most ISP's have subnets) You can never completely ban a player.

but even so, my main problem is that PB has banned alot of innocent people and i don't want to be one of them, i do constantly get kicked by punkbuster (with no reason) from bf2142 [very vexing] but i do not want to end up with a ban, which seems from others experiences a very expensive, or time consuming or both, process to revert.

[danuker]

You know, given that they now do stats tracking and all that for ranked servers.

Whats wrong with issuing global bans and locking accounts / cd keys if the players are conclusively proven to be cheating? I mean technically they probably will have broken the EULA when they run such utilities in the first place.

[Phobos]

i just say there should be a account ban, that if i have my server, and i want to ban someone, i can ban their game key, that way they need to buy a new game just to join, im fine with that, all i need

[Spynie]

no your not reading properly, PB can ban you without reason, with proof or not, because it's not controlled by humans, rather automated, if this, do that && that, else this || die.

and as i have said, people have been accidently banned and the people at EB have not helped them at all, i even know someone kinda personally who had his cd key banned, and i was playing bf with him at the time, he is no cheater (not too sharp for that). took along time, but EA fixed it up.

Lets just say PB has not got the best of reputations, it's more to be known for causing more trouble than it solves. There are a few stories out there.

[danuker]

Yes, now that you mentinoed it, I did remember PB incorrectly ban/kicking people out in W:ET before in one of the botched updates. Thankfully that was only temporarily and was resolved in a few days.

[Spynie]

lets just hope it will be functioning correctly then, i am just not that comfortable with something like PB determining your game's (and maybe PC's [BSoD's]) fate.

[Phobos]

most bans on pb like the md5tool are fixed, yeah at first its a bad problem, but theres usually a fix within a week

but what i was saying if you read was that, if i pay for my own server i should be able to not only ban ip or guid, but ban a player account from coming into MY server, for whatever reason i pursue. (it shouldnt be abused of course)

[Spynie]

thats alot of power to give to a player, after all you are human. think of the abuse, an admin is going to give up the game, decides to be a jackas and ban all the players at the time, and strip them of their accounts, it's ridiculous.

[sponge]

Admins can choose to ban whatever GUIDs, accounts, IPs from their server, but that doesn't mean a site like PunksBusted or PBBans will accept those kicks and apply them to all PsB/PBB servers. I don't think SD need to be in charge of CDKey deactivation, besides issues like pirated keys, IMO.

[cyberneticwolfie]

You have to accept that there will always be a group of people working to get round any measures you take for anti cheat.

As long as an anti cheat is effective enough to stop general players going on google and finding a cheat, thats generally good enough.

[vieja]

Do you know PBBANS? Its a database, with all cheaters caught by Punkbuster in PBBANS certified servers. If you have cheated in last year, you wont be able to play in any PBBANS server (any server can get this certifiy, its a config).

And good work by admins, taking guids (etpro, pb, or whatever) and researching ips is very important too.

[Tropenfieber]

Do you know PBBANS? Its a database, with all cheaters caught by Punkbuster in PBBANS certified servers. If you have cheated in last year, you wont be able to play in any PBBANS server (any server can get this certifiy, its a config).

And good work by admins, taking guids (etpro, pb, or whatever) and researching ips is very important too.

That sounds good.
I hope that many servers support that service.

[Spynie]

you can still get round it. but you will find less cheaters if the community is active and in a nice way, welcome newbies and teach them how to play at a fairly decent standard (most games which have very few cheats are this way) or what you can do is allow scripts to run, commands to be placed which make the user think they are getting an advantage. I remember a /handicap command in the quake 3 engine, nad i have no idea what it does, still put it to full haha.

that will keep all the noobs who use the hold cheats at bay, well, it worked in jedi academy :S

[=G4C=Dude4Him]

One of the best community services related to pb is http://www.punksbusted.com

This service allows for streaming of your pb logs to them. What this means is if I ban someone on my CoD2 server within minutes (or hours) that ban is propogated to 1,500 other CoD2 servers participating in the service. Their auto-mbl tool automatically updates the Master Ban list hourly and the MD5 checker tool does a fine job. Since implementing this I have seen in the logs pb banning two bonafide cheaters. I won't say hackers becasue it isn't their hack. The MD5 checks exposed cheat so-&-so.

I can imagine punksbusted will be setting up ETQW as soon as it comes out.

[vieja]

Sure, its a must. Punkbusted, pbbans, we have tools, community needs use them.