IDEA: Turtle Mapping

[shirosae]

Re: Shadows
The atmosphere in the last beta actually has the shadow-casting sun lower than the graphic sun. As far as I know, I'm the only person to notice that, so at the very least the sun could be raised by double that difference without anyone really noticing, for a reasonable reduction in shadow volume.

I'd actually raise it a little bit more, whilst not touching anything else about the atmosphere because it's quite difficult to spot and the shadows are the single biggest performance killer we have.

Originally Posted by [TFA]Violator

Shirosae - on your LOD groups set the shadowspec to 'med' for the smaller details. This will stop shadows on lower spec machines.

The problems are being mentioned by people who have high-spec machines, so I'm not sure shadowspec will help much. Plus there's that weird 3d shadow bug which I need to address anyway, so I might as well go in and meddle a bit.


Re: gameplay:
They are a bit lacking to begin with. Since the databrain transmission is mostly underground, the vehicles will need to be in from the start to be used at any time other than the very end of the map.

I can understand the reluctance to put aircraft in, but given that it's a Strogg assault and they're the ones planting, and the construction site is full of hiding holes for RL Soldiers, I don't think a Tormentor will be too unbalancing - and there will be an Anansi too, mind.

I think the biggest problem with the first stage is that there's no way for vehicles to get in, really, which forces everyone to play infantry promod style inside, except that the inside is too open for promod, so you get loads of sniping and explosives instead.

Swapping the ramp over and perhaps opening up so vehicles can get in a little from both sides might help a lot, depending on how much time/effort you're willing to put into balancing that.


If the ramp was opened up, it'd make sense to put a Hog in the construction site where the barrier is to ferry the databrain carrier into the subway and back out.


The Strogg spawn after the barrier is blown needs to be moved from inside the construction site to up at the warehouse just outside the construction site. This is the single most annoying spawn in the map, given that it forces you to run for freakin' ages unless one of the two icarus have respawned.

That'd need some kind of way to get into the construction site from the warehouse, which makes sense for the GDF entry anyway if we lower the GDF respawn time (so more time is spent being careful, less spent running, if you see what I mean). This route doesn't need to be anything elaborate, just a crate or two with a ramp-jump to get over.

Currently the majority of the fighting doesn't happen through the city, because the databrain route very much winds around it. We might want to consider shuffling the city blocks around a little so there are some city blocks between the subway exits and university, to act as ambush spots and cover from the heavies.


Lastly, I think a lot of the complaints have merit, as do a load of the suggestions even if they would require lots of work. That said, there's no need to get all flustered over them. Mapping is an iterative business; you try things, and keep the bits that work.

[Donnovan]

shirosae, this 3d shadow bug is not the strange light effect caused by portals? If yes. You can find it in retail maps. For exemple, if you die in a outsideportal, half your body inside, and half outside, your haracter will have a strange light.

I noticed this in the generator building main entrance, in island, on first objective.

Not sure what causes it but can be:

- Portals near outside portals;
- Too much big outside portals;
- Outside ambient light leaking inside.

I will do some tests on it, but right now i'm looking for the most simple way to create outside shadows for the Unjiversity.

[[TFA]Violator]

After a game this evening (was only 3v3 but it was telling) the first obj def needs more vehicles. I've added the hog at the tunnel but it needs more. I know we said icarus' were a no-no but I think a couple would help on the 1st obj to get the strogg onto the top floor. It is possible to get the hogs inside and even to the top floor but its a bit too tricky.

I still say no flyers on the 1st or 2nd objs. Heavies I'm not sure will help as the consite is such an enclosed area but we need more on the final obj. I still think that the terrain in the consite should be more hog/armadillo friendly by flattening out those bumps though they do look cool.

On the portals, I did have big portal issues with the hack building which I've now fixed (a LOD group having an outside portal dividing it) which was causing the flashing light issue.

We should consider baking shadows into the MT as well.

EDIT: see Fig1

The green area is a whole expanse which gets no action. As much as I like the forest and that bend in the road how about flooding this area so we can open up the possibilities of sea assaults more. Not have the cliffs so high in a few spots or have more jetties so that desi / trojans can get out of the water.

The red areas need buildings or something for cover. Strogg are currently pretty much sitting ducks coming out of the tunnel spawn. Area 2 would be a good candidate for what shirosae said about moving the spawn above ground. We could have it that the roof caves in in area 2 when the barrier blows allowing access to the tunnel from above.

Chris' area 5 while not a good RL spot for a fort, would do as a GDF forward spawn / garage with some vehicles to replace the spawn they have already. Adding a desi or even a cyclops to the strogg city forward spawn would be interesting.

Fig 2 - flooded area.

[whiteaden]

YES! to the flooded idea...! add some water!

[Azuvector]

Originally Posted by shirosae

They are a bit lacking to begin with. Since the databrain transmission is mostly underground, the vehicles will need to be in from the start to be used at any time other than the very end of the map.

Emphasis on this. ETQW inherently has the means to limit the rate of heavy vehicle involvement: leave them at rear spawns for attackers(so they have a long haul to reach combat, requiring them to be well-supported), or at forward spawns that get captured with objectives(which denies them as the map progresses, although care needs to be taken not to let attackers have a complete advantage there).
I don't really see what your guys' issue is with putting a Tormentor or Anansi or two in, tbh. Yes, they'll get flown, and yes, people will get killed from above. Flyerwhores(Of which I consider myself one, although certainly not the most skilled around.) will entertain themselves. Kinda standard for either of the fliers. And a couple Rocket Launcher/Obliterator users is all that it'll take to keep that under control, or even a couple Trojans(Provided there's no Anansi, given the Strogg don't have effective AVTs as attackers and have no dedicated AA vehicle.), as well as most of the objectives being indoors in the first place.

Originally Posted by shirosae

I think the biggest problem with the first stage is that there's no way for vehicles to get in, really, which forces everyone to play infantry promod style inside, except that the inside is too open for promod, so you get loads of sniping and explosives instead.

To a degree. I figure you probably could find a way, with some of the vehicles. But I tend to agree, opening the first objective up and making it more interesting by letting people(with effort) bring a vehicle or two inside would be useful. Blast a hole in the side of the building or something, perhaps, or include a large garage. Even just having them around to be around outside in the construction area would be useful. They don't really need to lord over the first objective here though; keep it out of their effective reach.

Originally Posted by shirosae

If the ramp was opened up, it'd make sense to put a Hog in the construction site where the barrier is to ferry the databrain carrier into the subway and back out.

This actually got me a little excited. I think this would make for quite an interesting take on a databrain objective... This would be something of a major overhaul for you guys at this point, but:
1. Stick the databrain near the construction yard or something; make it more a part of the map over the long game, to help justify the name a bit more.
2. Setup the barrier as an optional objective, rather than a primary one.
3. Extend the tunnel the barrier leads into, and create a long(doesn't need to be branching or complex), relatively wide, tunnel system beneath the main city of the map.
4. Insert several(3 total perhaps?) more barriers into the tunnel, as checkpoints. Have some stairs leading up from each of them, to the surface, in an alcove or booth/bunker checkpoint setup.
5. Stick the transmit objective at the far end of the tunnel.
6. Let people get around the barriers on foot.

What this creates is several things:
1. The construction yard plays more of a role in the map itself, making the name more fitting. People spend more time there, spawning(yeah, spawning on top of the databrain) and getting into the tunnel system, for example.
2. From there, you end up with a two-phase map. First objective being the construction yard area... Second being the databrain, on a very long capture route. The destination for the databrain should be fairly indoors to keep it from being ferried easily via Tormentor.
3. What makes this interesting is you have three means of getting the brain to its destination: a) Carrying it overground, using the buildings for cover and probably using medics extensively. The heavy vehicles play a role here. And dealing with the objective defences(turrets) should be largely unavoidable. b) Carrying it through the tunnel system on foot. With the barriers up, vehicles are basically locked out. c) Blowing the series of barriers inside the tunnel, and running a Hog through the tunnel with the brain, bypassing turrets and reaching the brain in short order.

I think it'd be interesting, at any rate. May be more of an overhaul than you guys are willing to do, though. And, in the end, it may not be a good idea in actual fact.

Anyhow, back on actual current-design topic...

Originally Posted by [TFA]Violator

I know we said icarus' were a no-no but I think a couple would help on the 1st obj to get the strogg onto the top floor.

Sticking a few ladders on the outside of the building, and making it less of a giant cube would help too. Think climbing up to a wide ledge surrounding the next floor, or into a hole in the side of the building, etc.

Originally Posted by [TFA]Violator

The green area is a whole expanse which gets no action.

I think you're being a little conservative in this. Areas that currently see no action are more like this:

It's just not worth anyone on Strogg's time to go over to the GDF base on foot, nor on anyone's routes to an objective.
That'll change to a degree with the introduction of more amphibious/water vehicles, and a reshaping of the beaches and cliffs to be friendlier to getting in and out of the water.

Originally Posted by [TFA]Violator

As much as I like the forest and that bend in the road how about flooding this area so we can open up the possibilities of sea assaults more. Not have the cliffs so high in a few spots or have more jetties so that desi / trojans can get out of the water.

I don't think increasing the water area itself will make much difference. The cliffsides being more climbable along longer stretches of the bay, will. As will providing several Desecrators. Yet... It also won't, because again, it's not along an objective route, other than simply for bringing a Desecrator to the final objective, or a Trojan to the first, in a straight-line path.

Why not let deployables drop onto the roof of the construction yard, too? Would lessen your guys concerns with flyers, I'd imagine, as well as possibly looking spectacular with a battery of AVTs on the roof going after Tormentors who stray too close? Then again, not sure you can do that by default in BaseETQW. :/

Something else that may be useful in GDF defense are sandbagged GPMGs, as they appear in a few of the BaseETQW maps...The construction yard building rather lends itself to being something of a fortress.

[[TFA]Violator]

@Azuvector

Some good feedback there.

Rooftop APTs is an interesting idea, but would easily be taken out by flyers given their range advantage. On a personal note though I'm fairly average in flyers I do think they dominate maps and should be kept to a minimum, there's already several threads on this we have one each in the final stage which I think is fair.

The block is a cube because its meant to be a featureless office block . There are a couple of ladder routes to the 2nd floor - the ramp & another set of scaffolding round the back (which needs making easier to use at the expense of realism).

Having the larger water area concentrates the action on the remaining bits of land. Think about any stock map, none of them use the entire map area - I didn't include the ocean because I consider that 'out of bounds'.

Lowering the hillside where the fort is (which would be a pain for Donnovan ) would give Strogg the chance to spawnrape if they so wish...

Adding another desi at the tunnel spawn for the 'new' water would be good IMHO. The road bend would be kept but go around the back of the petrol station directly to give a route for hogs etc. coming from tunnel into city.

The bottom green area in the shot you posted is actually the 2nd forward spawn for strogg, might not be obvious because currently it only comes into play once brain has been stolen once. As previously mentioned this is confusing. They should get the option to cap once barricade blown.

GPMGs - the building is already too easy to defend so not sure about that, though the changes I've made will hopefully help. The GDF tower in their forward spawn could do with one.

[Donnovan]

Still not readed all the new ideas, and i'm also no xerife here, but what about if we focuse on solving well know problems, starting with the simpliest ones?

Beta 2 must be a improve, and with many changes, to be right, we can go a step backwards.

Edit: Conjectures and more conjectures, who knows they are right? It's beautifull on the forum screen. If world was like that...?

[SebaSOFT]

Agree with Don here, I read lots of suggestions and many I agree with them, but let's take this one bit a at the time and see how it goes.

It's the price of openness, lol, most mappers would do what they want with the maps with little concern of the opinions... Think what maps had MAJOR overhauls after the first 2 releases?

[Chris]

Meltdown and Maridia were drastically changed during the internal testing, if something simply doesn't work you need to bite the bullet some times which can be hard thing to do. In ET I once restarted whole map after beta 4 and before that scrapped one large map idea to make 4 smaller maps which turned into 6 maps as the original just didn't work.

EDIT: Vio's plan with the red stuff on is pretty spot on imo, should strike nice balance between everyone's expectations of what the map should be like.

EDIT2: In fort spawn, please make the vehicles more closer to where you land or simply do away with the parachute malarkey, takes a while sometimes from when spawn to actually been able to get move on.

[Donnovan]

Thanks Chris, i still need to read it since i'm in rest now. Not reading long posts!

Vio, i see you talking a lot about the sunday match you played. It was 3x3 (or 3x2, because one was having dificult to join forces). You do not played it all, you leaved, and at least, strogg won the match, not GDF.

[[TFA]Violator]

Yeah food had arrived so had to go just after we got the hack (and funnily enough got defib killed by Chris lol). Point was that took 15 mins for 3v3 , but you are right for the most part it wasn't very co-ordinated, and we did have most success when falling back for the hogs.

[SebaSOFT]

Guys
In my community here in Argentina we get together to have balanced matches or scrims. Next Wed will be one held in Contruction Site and the match organizer put this image and I tought it would be cool to share.



Neat, isn't it?

[Donnovan]

Violator, this have real semelhance to your site!!!

[[TFA]Violator]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I used that photo as reference material hehe