ETQW need second chance!

[Milla]

ETQW need second chance!
http://www.esl.eu/eu/forum/139/166/545247/
after i red this post found somewhere here forgotten months, i will try to expain what i want to do.

ETQW need second chance. Everybody is talking about it, but nobody realy cares. I feel like we are sleeping or what. Most of the articles on these forums are only about stupid admins, or statwhoring. Is that all what majority of players are interested in only? Thats why you bought this game to see your stats growing? I think point of every MP game is in competitions only. Without competitions we can play singleplayer, there is no different, whole point of gaming is missing.

Lets start it again. now. its time to do something. waiting will not help to anybody.

I know, i will talk again about Victory or Defeat, but doesnt matter about it. Even wogh.weebly.com looks like page from last century, but i dont need fancy site to attract more players. Its only idea that needs some support. I got realy nice offer from DONMIKESH he is working on totally new professionaly-look site for this competition and i want to tell him thank you!
i think comp scene is not dead. Its waiting. long enought.its time to wake up.

so again, what is it about:

Victory or Defeat Enemy Territory Quake Wars competition (still in construction)

random teams 4v4
clan vs clan 4v4
special events by demand

Every SUNDAY 5PM CET (17:00)
first matches
+
final matches

4v4
6v6 by demand

im opened to any ideas

[Szakalot]

you need at least 4 stable teams, thats more than 20 serious players... good luck with that!!

Competition did not die off because admins decided to end up the cups. It died of because there was no one left to play. Since the playerbase is steadily declining, i do not know what your planning to get from this.

Kudos for not giving up though!
so... keep it going

[Ashtaroth]

Originally Posted by Szakalot

you need at least 4 stable teams, thats more than 20 serious players... good luck with that!!

Competition did not die off because admins decided to end up the cups. It died of because there was no one left to play. Since the playerbase is steadily declining, i do not know what your planning to get from this.

Kudos for not giving up though!
so... keep it going

^this

I mean, I'll gladly help and play as long as i can, but I guess you arrived 2 years late.
An always full propub server would be a huge success already (never gonna happen anyways) ,and perhaps a good start for your project

[signofzeta]

The Victory or Defeat thing kind of reminds me of that motto in this show where they show this ski jumper wipe out? What was that motto called?

[Generic.Z]

'The agony of defeat'...

succumb to it.. you will be off in the long run...

game is all but dead, comp wont help or save it.. only thing that could throw some new life into it, would be new content. i.e. maps.. but we all know that aint going to happen...

just move on, or enjoy what little is left...

[TAW_Feanor]

A few TAW members might enter in unofficially but you won't see any organized TAW support for this if you are playing 4 v 4 or even 6 v 6. Our 16 v 16 internal tournaments are great fun and most TAW members don't want to play the stripped-down version of the game, a.k.a. counterstrike-clone, that's why there are 150 members in TAW and there were less than 100 in the entire "comp." community combined even at its peak. People REALLY don't like the stripped-down version of the game with most of the stuff cut out and all the promod modifications. That's not quake wars, it's something else.

Let us know if you start doing 8 v 8s, 10 v 10s, 12 v 12s or 16 v 16s.

[signofzeta]

Originally Posted by Generic.Z

'The agony of defeat'...

succumb to it.. you will be off in the long run...

game is all but dead, comp wont help or save it.. only thing that could throw some new life into it, would be new content. i.e. maps.. but we all know that aint going to happen...

just move on, or enjoy what little is left...

Oh yeah, I remember it now.

"THE THRILL OF VICTORY.....

.... AND THE AGONY OF DEFEAT"

But we CAN do icarus ski jumps.

[appleseed]

I bet milla is following courses in marketing,.... you phail tho....

BTW megan fox shemale... I want a oneVone tomorrow, we got eachother in buddy list, lets do it, it'll be fun... bored of pedant phrase when you kill me once in a while.

edit is foon!

[appleseed]

Originally Posted by TAW_Feanor

A few TAW members might enter in unofficially but you won't see any organized TAW support for this if you are playing 4 v 4 or even 6 v 6. Our 16 v 16 internal tournaments are great fun and most TAW members don't want to play the stripped-down version of the game, a.k.a. counterstrike-clone, that's why there are 150 members in TAW and there were less than 100 in the entire "comp." community combined even at its peak. People REALLY don't like the stripped-down version of the game with most of the stuff cut out and all the promod modifications. That's not quake wars, it's something else.

Let us know if you start doing 8 v 8s, 10 v 10s, 12 v 12s or 16 v 16s.

SRSLY feanor I like you gamewise and human wise... maybe... but quit the merchandising, you are not in TOTAL.TM, or ACTIVISION.TM here, I just cant stand the fcin marketing even if you have done many for this game, two years later... quit saying that TAW is the only remaining clan to save your soul and we'll be quite friend....


Bored bored bored of freakin marketing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PS: any clan who sell his own t-shirt or sweatshirt is lame....

[Ashtaroth]

Originally Posted by TAW_Feanor

[...] that's why there are 150 members in TAW and there were less than 100 in the entire "comp." community combined even at its peak. People REALLY don't like the stripped-down version of the game with most of the stuff cut out and all the promod modifications.

Actually,you're wrong.
Promod doesn't "cut stuff out": you're in 150 and you haven't realized this yet?
This has been said like dozens of times on the forums, the promod allows you to either add or remove modifications of the game: you could play a vanilla game in promod,for example.
At the same time, it adds essential features vanilla doesn't have, like pauses, in case players crash during a match.

It's a matter of tastes anyway I guess: you and your gang prefer quantity, the "comp. community" preferred quality.
Unlike what you said, it's still the same game, with nothing but a different flavour.

[Gradis]

oh nice idea apples. Can we get a 1v1 tourny on?

[TAW_Feanor]

Originally Posted by Ashtaroth

Actually,you're wrong.
Promod doesn't "cut stuff out": you're in 150 and you haven't realized this yet?
This has been said like dozens of times on the forums, the promod allows you to either add or remove modifications of the game: you could play a vanilla game in promod,for example.
At the same time, it adds essential features vanilla doesn't have, like pauses, in case players crash during a match.

It's a matter of tastes anyway I guess: you and your gang prefer quantity, the "comp. community" preferred quality.
Unlike what you said, it's still the same game, with nothing but a different flavour.

Ashtaroth, Promod cuts a lot out. The most common applied ruleset for Pro cuts out tons of vehicles, radar, 4/5 of the infantry game (it eliminates the need to crouch, prone and stand still when shooting), etc.

Now, all of those above things are rulesets for Pro. Pro itself has two major bugs I know about that CANNOT be turned off or switched:
-it screws up most of the vehicle respawns (armor and fliers don't spawn in time, almost double time for both)
-the lean shooting disable toggle can't be switched

When you compare that to Vanilla or QWTA, Promod fails. QWTA is fully customizable and therefore succeeds where Pro has failed. Pro was a great stepping stone for its autodownload of custom content, but when Hannes stopped supporting it it became outdated. QWTA is the next major step as far as modding goes because EVERYTHING in it can be turned on or turned off, much more options.

[Ashtaroth]

Sorry if i'll multiquote (not a big fan of that) but I disagree on various things you said.

Originally Posted by TAW_Feanor

Promod cuts a lot out. The most common applied ruleset for Pro cuts out tons of vehicles, radar, 4/5 of the infantry game (it eliminates the need to crouch, prone and stand still when shooting), etc.

I did not talk about rulesets, but the mod itself. If a league sets the promod ruleset in a way you do not like, why do you have to stick to that?
Using that logic, if a kid was given a ball to play with he wouldn't be allowed to, since FIFA have some precise rules about the size,weight,etc, even if he doesn't play in that league.

Furthermore, it does not eliminate the infantry game: in fact, it enhances it, making it more skill-based ; crouching,proning and leaning are still vital aspects of the infantry arsenal in promod, get your facts straight please.

Originally Posted by TAW_Feanor

Also, for the last time, I am tired of hearing people claim "those who like vanilla are spam/quantity whores and those who like pro are "pros/appreciate quality." That's absurd and you have it backwards. Those people who enjoy cutting stuff out of the game are the ones who have a problem understanding quality. SD worked hard to craft awesome vehicles and balanced deployables and all kinds of infantry shooting dynamics, and the pro-mod 6 v 6 rulesets arbitrarily threw them out. People who play full vanilla settings are people who appreciate quality, because they can handle everything the game throws at them vs. people who can't handle dealing with fliers, radar, needing to deal with a weapons spread etc.

I have the feeling you are mixing the "fun" and "competition" aspects of the game together on purpose in this quote to mislead the topic in this thread.

Allow me to remind you this,this thread is (or at least was) about ETQW competitions: I personally couldn't care less if you find enjoyable this or that part of the game. I play vanilla often as well, but i doubt that anyone is interested in my personal tastes.

Now please, let me to ask you this question: what do you think is the most important thing in any game from a competitive point of view?
I think that it's safe to say that it's the possibility to have a clear,superior winner: the higher the chance, the more advanced and successful the competitive scene will be.
A quick example to let you understand what I mean: you'll never get the quality of a competition like running the 100 meters in any luck-based sport/game.
The same can be applied to any game or sport,like chess,or soccer.

The main flaw in vanilla ETQW, always from a competition perspective, is that it's (please forgive the leet speak but it's necessary) noob friendly,luck based.
With such an unpolished system you can't really achieve the quality needed for high level competitions: the game is slow, the spread is random (luck based), and to be more accurate you need to stand still,crouched,with ironsight. Even if you were the best player on Earth on a redbull overdose you wouldn't be able to kill 2-3-4 enemies at the same time in a serious match.
Competition means that you should at least be able to,assuming you're better.


When i talk about quality, I mean the quality of the competition: you can't really argue that a 6vs6 promod match is much more tense and requires more strategies,deepness,concentration,aim,situational awareness,experience from each player, in a word more (forgive me again i hate this) skill than a 12vs12 vanilla war,where a random player can either pick his nose or go to the toilet without doing any harm to his team.As for vehicles, in promod they're precious,which allows a better tanker to express his better gameplay,unlike in vanilla where you can just use that trojan as a taxi and then dump it.
That's what competition is about,quality,and that's what I tried to mean in my previous post.

Enemy Territory: QUAKE wars.
More like Call of Duty:Pacman Skirmishes if you ask me.
I only wish this game was at least half as hard as the real quake.

[BMXer]

Originally Posted by Ashtaroth

With such an unpolished system you can't really achieve the quality needed for high level competitions: the game is slow, the spread is random (luck based), and to be more accurate you need to stand still,crouched,with ironsight. Even if you were the best player on Earth on a redbull overdose you wouldn't be able to kill 2-3-4 enemies at the same time in a serious match.
Competition means that you should at least be able to,assuming you're better.


When i talk about quality, I mean the quality of the competition: you can't really argue that a 6vs6 promod match is much more tense and requires more strategies,deepness,concentration,aim,situational awareness,experience from each player, in a word more (forgive me again i hate this) skill than a 12vs12 vanilla war,where a random player can either pick his nose or go to the toilet without doing any harm to his team.As for vehicles, in promod they're precious,which allows a better tanker to express his better gameplay,unlike in vanilla where you can just use that trojan as a taxi and then dump it.
That's what competition is about,quality,and that's what I tried to mean in my previous post.

+1 to everything ashy said. I can understand how you TAW guys have a lot of fun with your higher number matches and pubs are fun in their own right but 6v6 is were comp is at in ETQW and I will argue that until the day I die. Say all you want about things being removed from the game but those things don't make for good competition. 6v6 ETQWpro with the community rules is the best way for this game to be played competitively, bottom line. Its just too bad we will never see it played that way in an organized way again .

[Milla]

Originally Posted by appleseed

I bet milla is following courses in marketing,.... you phail tho....

BTW megan fox shemale... I want a oneVone tomorrow, we got eachother in buddy list, lets do it, it'll be fun... bored of pedant phrase when you kill me once in a while.

edit is foon!

and thats the problem. its not about marketing lessions and you know that.

[TAW_Feanor]

If you truly believe there is no skill required to mastering the vehicles, or heavy weapons or knowing how to use the full range of deployables then you are being very short-sighted. Flying is without a doubt the hardest skill to master in the game, and there are a million different ways to counter a flier, or any other part of the game. Face it, it takes more skill to play the full range of classes and vehicles in vanilla mode than it does to focus on the few limited skillsets required in the stripped-down rulesets that were used for the comp. leagues. You can't argue with this, it isn't even a matter of of opinion. It would be like you trying to say that algebra is more complicated than calculus. More vectors of attack require greater mastery of more skills. It's very simple. It is sheer arrogance to assume the only game worth learning and mastering is running around on the ground with your gun, if that's true you should be playing counterstrike, not Quake Wars. It's not true that on larger teams people can screw around and it won't effect anything, it's just the opposite. Because of the larger teams if people screw around the other large team will roll them fast. I have seen it many times on the pubs.

For the last time and for the record, what TAW does not is "pub." We do a higher degree of comp. than the leagues ever did. We meet three times a week and work out complicated strategies and train, and we have been doing this every week since 2007!

If the 6 v 6 ruleset were so much better, then where are the leagues? Where is the comp.? It's gone. And what you seem to have a hard time realizing is that people who fanatically endorsed cutting the game into tiny pieces were the ones who killed it. You yourselves are responsible for killing comp. with the limited rulesets, not Quake Wars, there is nothing instrinsically wrong with the game and there are still plenty of people left playing it, they simply don't want to play the limited, cut-down counterstrike form of it. Do I really need to resurrect all the threads where people were saying things like "you are cutting the heart and soul out of ETQW!" ? How long do you think it would take to get bored with the average video game? Then cut out about 3/4 of it and repeat the same question? This should be a major factor in answering the question of why there wasn't more interest in the comp. leagues.

Ashtaroth, I don't think you have ever tried to fully configure a pro server, or you would know that certain cvars cannot be changed and are hard-coded into the mod, the two I mentioned are bugs with the game. Let me know if you can get a PRO server going where the armor and fliers respawn at the proper intervals, you can't.

[ducnow]

Originally Posted by TAW_Feanor

If you truly believe there is no skill required to mastering the vehicles, or heavy weapons or knowing how to use the full range of deployables then you are being very short-sighted. Flying is without a doubt the hardest skill to master in the game, and there are a million different ways to counter a flier, or any other part of the game. Face it, it takes more skill to play the full range of classes and vehicles in vanilla mode than it does to focus on the few limited skill sets required in the stripped-down rule sets that were used for the comp. leagues. You can't argue with this, it isn't even a matter of of opinion. It would be like you trying to say that algebra is more complicated than calculus. More vectors of attack require greater mastery of more skills. It's very simple. It is sheer arrogance to assume the only game worth learning and mastering is running around on the ground with your gun, if that's true you should be playing counterstrike, not Quake Wars. It's not true that on larger teams people can screw around and it won't effect anything, it's just the opposite. Because of the larger teams if people screw around the other large team will roll them fast. I have seen it many times on the pubs.

For the last time and for the record, what TAW does not is "pub." We do a higher degree of comp. than the leagues ever did. We meet twice a week and work out complicated strategies, we train every thursday, and we have been doing this every week since 2007!

If the 6 v 6 ruleset were so much better, then where are the leagues? Where is the comp.? It's gone. And what you seem to have a hard time realizing is that people who fanatically endorsed cutting the game into tiny pieces were the ones who killed it. You yourselves are responsible for killing comp. with the limited rulesets, not Quake Wars, there is nothing instrinsically wrong with the game and there are still plenty of people left playing it, they simply don't want to play the limited, cut-down counterstrike form of it. Do I really need to resurrect all the threads where people were saying things like "you are cutting the heart and soul out of ETQW!" ? How long do you think it would take to get bored with the average video game? Then cut out about 3/4 of it and repeat the same question? This should be a major factor in answering the question of why there wasn't more interest in the comp. leagues.

For most people learning to shoot period is a hard thing to do... No skill!!!

Most of us are aware TAW played 6 vs 6

PS: Comp died from lack of nubs interest and not enough players with skill...
It's happened 100 times, a new team forms that team gets there arses handed to them by skilled experienced players/teams and then quites the comp scene because they haven't the skill. So then the same teams are left playing each other... Then there were teams like WCK who couldn't win a match but stuck with it most of the time because they had balls to get better as a team.

We were so bored with playing the same teams over and over again because there weren't enough people with balls to stick it out and get better as a team that most teams and players decided to end it or withdraw because we knew there wasn't enough talent out there to take on the likes of Fate, Hubris or Tuf.

Besides comp took a lot of dedication scrim after scrim after scrim to get better. Some people can't put that kind of time in, life, school, relationships were a huge factor.

12 vs 12 comp with everything enabled is ok. Too many random deaths and people running around and in the way. Someone with no talent can easily get away with playing because there are 11 people to cover there arse. Like they said in above posts 6 vs 6 without random spam is where it's at. Because if 1 person doesn't do there job or just blows that leaves the 6 man team weak.

[INF3RN0]

Originally Posted by TAW_Feanor

If you truly believe there is no skill required to mastering the vehicles, or heavy weapons or knowing how to use the full range of deployables then you are being very short-sighted. Flying is without a doubt the hardest skill to master in the game, and there are a million different ways to counter a flier, or any other part of the game. Face it, it takes more skill to play the full range of classes and vehicles in vanilla mode than it does to focus on the few limited skillsets required in the stripped-down rulesets that were used for the comp. leagues. You can't argue with this, it isn't even a matter of of opinion. It would be like you trying to say that algebra is more complicated than calculus. More vectors of attack require greater mastery of more skills. It's very simple. It is sheer arrogance to assume the only game worth learning and mastering is running around on the ground with your gun, if that's true you should be playing counterstrike, not Quake Wars. It's not true that on larger teams people can screw around and it won't effect anything, it's just the opposite. Because of the larger teams if people screw around the other large team will roll them fast. I have seen it many times on the pubs.

For the last time and for the record, what TAW does not is "pub." We do a higher degree of comp. than the leagues ever did. We meet twice a week and work out complicated strategies, we train every thursday, and we have been doing this every week since 2007!

If the 6 v 6 ruleset were so much better, then where are the leagues? Where is the comp.? It's gone. And what you seem to have a hard time realizing is that people who fanatically endorsed cutting the game into tiny pieces were the ones who killed it. You yourselves are responsible for killing comp. with the limited rulesets, not Quake Wars, there is nothing instrinsically wrong with the game and there are still plenty of people left playing it, they simply don't want to play the limited, cut-down counterstrike form of it. Do I really need to resurrect all the threads where people were saying things like "you are cutting the heart and soul out of ETQW!" ? How long do you think it would take to get bored with the average video game? Then cut out about 3/4 of it and repeat the same question? This should be a major factor in answering the question of why there wasn't more interest in the comp. leagues.

Ashtaroth, I don't think you have ever tried to fully configure a pro server, or you would know that certain cvars cannot be changed and are hard-coded into the mod, the two I mentioned are bugs with the game. Let me know if you can get a PRO server going where the armor and fliers respawn at the proper intervals, you can't.

I think that your looking at it a little too simplistically. 12v12s were fun, but there's no way that could ever develop into something. 6v6 is a lot more strategical imo, even though its on a smaller scale. You can do more with fewer people, and it's not at all just about running and shooting. People carefully coordinate their movements in order to take control of each objective and win the map. Vehicles are included, although not nearly as many and they are more than enough to live up to Quake Wars' vehicle element. The reason you have the game "stripped" down is because it brings a better balance between the incredible spam of the game and the classic shooter. It can feel like a different game, but it is definitely something I would rather play than vanilla. A lot of people like Quake Wars because of the team play elements, which the vanilla does not fully appreciate or is not fully possible to enjoy in comparison to pro. The kind of stuff your talking about is for clan battles, which you won't find any support in a league for. I don't mean any offense, but I understand why the average player would like vanilla over pro mod. It's the same reason in every other game. The spam elements of the game definitely are appealing to a lot of people, but it's like shooting fish in a barrel if you can't overpower another teams spam elements. In pro you can't rely as much on the spam, which makes each individual player more important to winning a game. I know how much you guys pride yourself in pubs, but you can't deny that pro mod touches on all the best aspects of the game and require as much if not more "skill" as you put it. I wouldn't blame the league format for killing comp... it's just a game that did not catch on with people, especially those who decided COD4 was a better buy.

*It just sounds like you never really got to fully experience the advantages of pro over pub.

[TAW_Feanor]

You guys seem to forget, I played in comp. I was in STA, TGL, etc. I know all about what the comp. leagues were and I trained for their limited strategy. My final conclusion is that the only reason certain teams got so good at it was because it was so limited. The top "comp" players never had to bother learning the other parts of the game, and then many of them come onto the forums to complain about how they get owned by the vehicles on the pubs and whine about how unbalanced the full game is. How boring.

You seriously cannot see why this got tiresome quickly and comp. died out?

As for the game never "catching on," it caught on great, just ask any of our members or the tons of people still playing it. This is also the reason why the pro-pubs are empty. The whole game was good, and the proof is that when the arbitrary decisions were made on what to include in the limited comp ruleset, most people ditched comp.

Does it really take an empty room to make you realize almost no one wants to play something? Where are the hundreds of comp. players who believe the limited rulesets are better than vanilla? To have comp. you have to have people first. This is a video game, not a job. If it isn't fun then no one will play.

As for competition, our internal competitions are much more organized and about skill and coordination than anything I ever saw playing STA or TGL, and we aren't going 12 v 12, we are doing 16 v 16.

[Aristotle]

Before you read my replies, you should know that I mean no disrespect at all, so don't take something I say the wrong way. I have respect for TAW and consider many of the players to be skilled in their own rights, and friends.

Originally Posted by TAW_Feanor

You guys seem to forget, I played in comp. I was in STA, TGL, etc. I know all about what the comp. leagues were and I trained for their limited strategy. My final conclusion is that the only reason certain teams got so good at it was because it was so limited.

That's your opinion. Teams got good because they practiced, put the long hard hours in that it took to get to the skill level they were at. They played better teams/players which in turn made them better.

Originally Posted by TAW_Feanor

The top "comp" players never had to bother learning the other parts of the game, and then many of them come onto the forums to complain about how they get owned by the vehicles on the pubs and whine about how unbalanced the full game is. How boring.

Uhm, no they don't? They only complain about being banned or kicked from servers because the admins get butthurt. Also, just about every top comp player is very good at all aspects of the game, infantry, vehicles ect.

Originally Posted by TAW_Feanor

You seriously cannot see why this got tiresome quickly and comp. died out?

Comp only died out because the new teams who kept signing up and joining (example WCK, no disrespect meant) and would get owned over and over again by the teams with more experience and then drop out. If they bothered to actually review the demos, not just each players own, but the entire teams demos, talk about what they did that worked, what they did that didn't work, and then go on from there and talk about what could work in the future, and then practice that, along with playing teams better than they are, they would have gotten better. Instead time after time, all those teams just dropped because they got tired of being owned, and did nothing to try to keep it from happening, to further their skill.

Originally Posted by TAW_Feanor

The whole game was good, and the proof is that when the arbitrary decisions were made on what to include in the limited comp ruleset, most people ditched comp.

Again, my last statement applies here. There were also some players who disliked the league admins who made the rulesets/configs when they didn't even play the game, and would not listen to the community to find out what they wanted changed. That was, in my opinion, one of the biggest downfalls. You see people asking and talking about maybe changing some things, nothing really that big mind you, and the admins wouldn't even consider doing it, even though 90%+ of the comp community wanted it.

Originally Posted by TAW_Feanor

Does it really take an empty room to make you realize almost no one wants to play something? Where are the hundreds of comp. players who believe the limited rulesets are better than vanilla? To have comp. you have to have people first.

They are still around, a lot of them smurf and just play on pubs right now because as of currently there is no league that is supporting the game, which has nothing to do with the players.

Originally Posted by TAW_Feanor

This is a video game, not a job. If it isn't fun then no one will play.

So you're saying that comp isn't fun? I personally find it to be extremely fun and worth while (even if the team I would be playing on got steamrolled by a better team, again you get better by playing better teams/players), yes it takes dedication, but even playing pub while being in a clan requires dedication, what level depends on what your role is in the clan.

Originally Posted by TAW_Feanor

As for competition, our internal competitions are much more organized and about skill and coordination than anything I ever saw playing STA or TGL, and we aren't going 12 v 12, we are doing 16 v 16.

I read over this thread and I don't see one person talking down on TAW's 12v12 matches, but time and time again I see you smash every other form of comp that isn't your idea of a true competition.

It has been said before and I will say it again, promod will make a player better.

In vanilla it's more about luck than it is anything else. In pro you have to have some level of skill to compete. Any noob can come in on vanilla and easily get most kills, or somewhat dominate that specific map. For pro the player would have to actually have some level of skill.

You also mentioned in one of your previous posts something about how pro disallows radar. I don't see how thats a bad thing. Having no radar promotes better team communication, as well as situational awareness.

[TAW_Feanor]

I appreciate your reasoned, frank responses. I take no offense, it's hard to in my line of work.

Let me be equally frank: I am not trying to talk-down the limited ruleset or pro-cvars for the hell of it, I have seen what damage it has caused the community and I think the community is better off without it. There is a ton of negativity and casual arrogance about how "great" and "hard" it is to play promod with limited rulesets and total complete disdain for the vanilla game. Are you really going to ignore all of the negative comments in this thread made about Quake Wars from people? The negative comments directed at my own clan aside (and yes there were some), it's weird that people would be so hostile and not instead just go play W:ET, UT, or some other game instead.

I find all of this counter-productive. There really should be a separate forums for people who want to discuss promod and the limited ruleset stuff because it isn't really even Quake Wars any more, it's a different game, and I am tired of hearing people slam Quake Wars without sufficient basis.

[Szakalot]

Originally Posted by TAW_Feanor

If you truly believe there is no skill required to mastering the vehicles, or heavy weapons or knowing how to use the full range of deployables then you are being very short-sighted.

No one said that. We just have different definitions of skill. For you its more about the game knowledge (knowing how to use different vehicles, weapons, tools, etc.), for comp people its more about the ability (hand-eye coordination, situational awereness, reflex, instinct-based teamplay)

Flying is without a doubt the hardest skill to master in the game, and there are a million different ways to counter a flier, or any other part of the game.

Im a flier, i was probably one of the best there is (once) and i totally disagree. The more you fly the better you are. There is little reflex included, compared for example to tracking a head with an smg. Ive seen really weak shots getting decent at flying, after they had a certain amount of hours put into dogfighting.

Face it, it takes more skill to play the full range of classes and vehicles in vanilla mode than it does to focus on the few limited skillsets required in the stripped-down rulesets that were used for the comp. leagues. You can't argue with this, it isn't even a matter of of opinion. It would be like you trying to say that algebra is more complicated than calculus.

We have different definitions of skill. What i find an advantegous characteristic of my definition over yours is that people with ability can always obtain the knowledge too, whereas it does not work the other way around. You think its that difficult to know what a hyperblaster does? Your still going to own the one who knows how to burst-fire properly if your a better shot.

More vectors of attack require greater mastery of more skills. It's very simple. It is sheer arrogance to assume the only game worth learning and mastering is running around on the ground with your gun, if that's true you should be playing counterstrike, not Quake Wars.

No one said that. And please, id appreciate it if you stop telling people what to do We have our game, 6v6 comp, you have yours. But the moment you say that our version is 'simplified' and dumbed down, we will start saying that yours does not require any ability to play, is a pure luck-based spam-fest, etc. etc.

It's not true that on larger teams people can screw around and it won't effect anything, it's just the opposite. Because of the larger teams if people screw around the other large team will roll them fast. I have seen it many times on the pubs.

Thats just not true
Assuming there is some kind of randomness as to what the result of the game is gonna be (which i believe is totally true, just for the random spread, if nothing else):
The more people on a team, the less one person matters. If you play 1v1, and you screw around - you lose with 100% certainty.
If you play 4v4 and one person screws around, your team is down 25% of its power.
When you play 12v12 and one person does that, the team is down more like 8%
I am not saying that 12v12 allows for people to screw around and it wont affect anything. Im saying that it will affect the results less than in a 4v4 or 6v6 scenario, and id love you to prove me wrong.

For the last time and for the record, what TAW does not is "pub." We do a higher degree of comp. than the leagues ever did. We meet three times a week and work out complicated strategies and train, and we have been doing this every week since 2007!

Careful with the world 'higher', you might start thinking you would own those 6v6 teams. You were very active, kudos for you. But give me a random gather of the top 5 euro teams 12 players against the best you get to offer... well i can safely predict the result.

Oh sorry for the mindless bashing, forget the last par.

If the 6 v 6 ruleset were so much better, then where are the leagues? Where is the comp.? It's gone. And what you seem to have a hard time realizing is that people who fanatically endorsed cutting the game into tiny pieces were the ones who killed it.

6v6 died because a competitive environment requires a certain amount of dedicated players to be in action. You honestly wonder why comp is less popular? Comp is hardcore! it always has less players than the mainstream. Now if the game has too small of a playerbase (like QW), than the comp will collapse due to the lack of new blood coming in.

And how the hell did we kill comp???
Do you honestly need reminding all those attempts at making 12v12 or 10v10 or 8v8 unrestricted leagues that failed miserably because there was no one to play in them?

there is nothing instrinsically wrong with the game and there are still plenty of people left playing it, they simply don't want to play the limited, cut-down counterstrike form of it.

There is something wrong with the game if you play it very competitively. Vanilla is too random, there are too many broken tactics to be fun to play after you are good enough. Its like 1v1 counterstrike maps with only the sniper rifles. Its fun when your not that much of a good player, but after a certain point, a criticial-mass, the game is not fun anymore, because there is only one tactic that always works and the game is broken

Havent you ever wondered why not every sport got into the olympics? Some things are just becoming broken, once people who play it are good enough. You know 'five in a row'? A simple game, that can be played to kill time, but once your good enough, there is basically one way to play it (one algorithm), and that is an unbeatable tactic.

Do I really need to resurrect all the threads where people were saying things like "you are cutting the heart and soul out of ETQW!" ? How long do you think it would take to get bored with the average video game? Then cut out about 3/4 of it and repeat the same question? This should be a major factor in answering the question of why there wasn't more interest in the comp. leagues.

Do i need to resurrect the threads 'this is spamfest', 'give us enemy territory', 'give us quake', 'give us promod'?
Maybe you werent here when the game hit the shelves, but the comp started as unrestricted, since people did not really know what should be limited. Things like radar and flyers were clearly noticed as game breakers in a 6v6 environment, and you need to face it, the more players you get, the less serious the competition is going to be. You can play 12v12 all you want, but there is just no way to achieve the same amount of tactical teamplay in that case, compared to smaller formats.

Im also wondering about your matching system.
Do you have a total playerbase and (semi-)randomly setup the lineups for the next match, or do you have fixed mini-lineups that always play together against each other?
If the former is the case, than what you got is not comp, because there are no winners, there are just players (which is cool in its own right, its just not comp anymore).
If the latter is the case, im surprised you kept it as one clan.

But i speculate, so how does it work?

[TAW_Feanor]

this brief article fairly accurately describes our internal comp and how it works.
http://taw.net/blogs/features/archiv...-earth-ix.aspx

to answer some of your questions:
-we have fixed teams that stay together for a few months and play as a team within TAW against the other teams. After a few months we redraft teams to shake things up.

[Ashtaroth]

I'll back back to this quote when I have some time,but I'll just quickly voice some thought on this passage

Originally Posted by TAW_Feanor

If you truly believe there is no skill required to mastering the vehicles, or heavy weapons or knowing how to use the full range of deployables then you are being very short-sighted. Flying is without a doubt the hardest skill to master in the game, and there are a million different ways to counter a flier, or any other part of the game. Face it, it takes more skill to play the full range of classes and vehicles in vanilla mode than it does to focus on the few limited skillsets required in the stripped-down rulesets that were used for the comp. leagues. You can't argue with this, it isn't even a matter of of opinion. It would be like you trying to say that algebra is more complicated than calculus. More vectors of attack require greater mastery of more skills. It's very simple.

You said you played comp as well,yet you don't remember that you use vehicles,heavy weapons and the array deployables in a 6on6?
There's two cases, either you're ignorant about comp(which means you weren't sincere) or you're trolling.

Secondly,you criticize promod comparing it to counterstrike,yet you praise flyers as the highest ETQW skill? That would be called hypocrisy,if only that was true. I'd recommend buying microsoft flying simulator,some crazy tournaments going on there.

Regarding the "multiple vectors take more skill" part you brought up,let me enlighten you: that's called teamwork and it has nothing to do with each of your team mates' skill. They're different things.
Quick example: quake 3 duel. According to your theory it should be easy as pie,since there's only one vector (you) against another one. Surprisingly enough it has to be one of the hardest games ever .

But let's suppose you were right,vanilla takes more skill than promod.
Considering that plus you and your gang training for 2 years as you said ,I would have expected better results in your comp 6vs6 experience,that really comes as a shock.
Keep dreaming anyways

[t0db0t]

i do love the battles we have in TAW. But I do miss the comp matches very much.

i only wish there was comp now cause I dont suck so bad these days lol